In Home DC Supply and Backup!

kb0nly · Post by **kb0nly** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 1:51 pm

Ok, here it is. A little wiring left to do, and i still have to finish tidying up all the wiring after i get a few more things connected, but i thought some might be interested in seeing it.

Optima Battery. I went with the Optima mainly because of everyones recommendation for it being safe for indoor use, and because of its apparently high quality and durability.

The distribution is nothing fancy really. Just a 60amp breaker separating the battery from the power supply and fuse panel, i used one with a manual trip so that i can disconnect the battery for service or replacement. Also if i need to make repairs i can trip the breaker to disconnect the battery and unplug the power supply and the entire system is de-energized. An eight position fuse panel with ground bus. And two manual reset 40 amp breakers. The breakers will be feeding X9000's, everything else will be running off the fuse panel.

Iota DLS55, 55 amp continuous duty power supply with optional IQ4 smart charge controller module for maintaining the battery.

So far the results have been encouraging. I ran an entire day on battery, with plenty of long winded transmissions, and the battery held up well. I plugged the Iota back in and the IQ4 went to bulk rate charge, then absorption, and finally float, just as the manufacturer explains.

http://www.iotaengineering.com/dls.htm

The battery was recharged in a couple hours, give or take, i wasn't under the desk watching the LED indicator so i only know that a couple hours later it was back on trickle charge. This will be fixed shortly by relocating the IQ4 to a viewable location. It's connected to the DLS with a 4 pin modular plug, a telephone handset plug, so it's easy to make up a new length of cable to move it farther away. Though i haven't determined yet if increasing the distance will affect performance due to voltage changes with a longer cable. Time will tell.

I also will be adding a voltmeter near the radios to monitor battery voltage while on battery.

Any comments/suggestions or questions feel free to post.

RKG · Post by **RKG** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 2:08 pm

Hope you don't mind:

1. The Positive battery terminal connection should be booted, to prevent inadvertant shorting.

2. I believe the YellowTop Optima is a form of gel cell: be sure that your charger is programmed for gel cell voltage set points, which are different (lower for bulk/acceptance and higher for float) from those for flooded cell. If your charger has a temperature compensation feature, wire it to the positive terminal; if not, use values for average room temperature in which the battery is located.

3. Be sure that your charger's max bulk output does not exceed 40% of the battery's nominal AH rating.

4. By itself, a volt meter will tell you little about battery condition (though it is better than nothing). As a rule, you prefer to get the battery on charge by the time it reaches the 75% of capacity point (i.e., discharged by 25% of its nominal capacity) and you insist on getting it on charge (or at least off load) by the 50% point. A VM won't give you this information. A summing AH meter (e.g., Link 10) will. If all you have is the VM, adopt some rules of thumb and stick by them. For instance: shut down when on load terminal voltage <= 11.5 or recovery voltage (off load and charge for at least one hour) <= 12.0.

5. Battery capacity calcs go out the window if the instantaneous draw is high. Putting a 40A load on a 85 AH 12V battery reduces the battery's nominal capacity drastically. If you are regularly going to run high power radios, consider wiring a second battery (identical make, model and vintage) in parallel with the first one.

kb0nly · Post by **kb0nly** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 2:45 pm

Dont mind at all! And here are my answers...

1. The Positive battery terminal connection should be booted, to prevent inadvertant shorting.

Yes, as stated, i am still working on it. The positive terminal will be completely covered and sealed once i'm done.

2. I believe the YellowTop Optima is a form of gel cell: be sure that your charger is programmed for gel cell voltage set points, which are different (lower for bulk/acceptance and higher for float) from those for flooded cell. If your charger has a temperature compensation feature, wire it to the positive terminal; if not, use values for average room temperature in which the battery is located.

Not really a gel cell, actually it's AGM, similar but not the same. The Optima, according to the manufacturer, can be used in place of a normal flooded cell car battery without any change to the charging system. Which is another reason why i used it instead of a Gel Cell. The IQ4 takes all the guess work out of it, just connect and forget. A lot of RV and boat owners recommended the IQ4 after using it for years without any problems.

3. Be sure that your charger's max bulk output does not exceed 40% of the battery's nominal AH rating.

You got me confused on this one. Optima doesn't warn about this, as a matter of fact they state it can be charged at much higher rates than a standard battery. The product spec sheet states that it can be charged with a max voltage of 15.6v with NO current limit as long as the battery temperature remains below 125 degrees fahrenheit, charging at this rate until the current drops below 1 amp then switching to trickle charge. Which is what the IQ4 takes care of for me. So i assume you mean for gel cell's as the Optima it doesn't cause a problem.

4. By itself, a volt meter will tell you little about battery condition (though it is better than nothing). As a rule, you prefer to get the battery on charge by the time it reaches the 75% of capacity point (i.e., discharged by 25% of its nominal capacity) and you insist on getting it on charge (or at least off load) by the 50% point. A VM won't give you this information. A summing AH meter (e.g., Link 10) will. If all you have is the VM, adopt some rules of thumb and stick by them. For instance: shut down when on load terminal voltage <= 11.5 or recovery voltage (off load and charge for at least one hour) <= 12.0.

Actually i got you again here... I went with what the manufacturer, Optima, suggested. They recommend that when using one of their deep cycle batteries that the cutoff point be 10.5v, now obviously the radios will be unhappy before this point, but if needed to supply power to lower voltage devices that are regulating the battery voltage, or emergency lighting, it would still be useful until that point is reached. Also the voltmeter will be useful for monitor the state of the charge being applied by the IQ4, bulk is 14.76 max, absorption is 14.16, and float is 13.6. These are just roughly calculated from their chart on the web page, number of cells times the voltage per cell, etc.

Seeing how many of these Optimas are in use for high power car stereos, and the local shop tells me how they will drain them flat before starting the vehicle and recharging, i can barely imagine my use being that high of a demand during normal use.

5. Battery capacity calcs go out the window if the instantaneous draw is high. Putting a 40A load on a 85 AH 12V battery reduces the battery's nominal capacity drastically. If you are regularly going to run high power radios, consider wiring a second battery (identical make, model and vintage) in parallel with the first one.

I won't be using them for regular high power use. Eventually i would like to parallel a second battery of the same type if needed. For now i don't have any use for a second battery. This will mainly be to allow monitoring when the power is out, along with brief transmissions, as well as powering a couple lights at the operating position. Also to maintain the radios operating conditions, settings and scan lists, when the AC fails. In a real emergency i wouldn't be using the X9000 anyway, i would make use of a HT with batteries and also battery eliminators which would run a LOT longer off this battery. I plan on adding a power socket to the operating position so i can plug in devices that have a cig plug. Cell phone charger, handhelds, battery chargers, etc.

kb0nly · Post by **kb0nly** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 2:48 pm

Optima charging info...

jim · Post by **jim** » Thu Feb 09, 2006 8:34 pm

The Optima behaves as a regular lead acid battery.
If your charger can do 30A or 300A, it won't hurt the Optima at all, such as in a Powerstroke ambulance's charging system with dual alternators. This is where the automotive battery excels most others.

Most of the numbers, formulas, specific gravity and rates are all technical masturbation and mean nothing with an Optima.

Charge it at whatever rate you wish- you can't hurt it. Just make sure the max charge voltage doesn't exceed 14.2-14.4V and float it at low-thirteens once it is charged. My backup is 7 years old now and it's just fine. If I connect it to a car, it will start it.

BTW, I use a Duracom smart charger.

kb0nly · Post by **kb0nly** » Thu Feb 09, 2006 8:57 pm

Thanks for the vote of confidence Jim. That is pretty much what everyone else that has experience with Optima's has told me.

Oh, and sorry about the picture snafu, they should all be back up now. I was updating some files on my web server tonight and moved a folder by accident.

kf4sqb · Post by **kf4sqb** » Thu Feb 09, 2006 10:31 pm

Nice work, Scott, but I prefer my backup set. I'm using a bank of 10 110 AH flooded NiCad cells with a pretty simple constant voltage charger rated at 15 amp continuous, 30 amp surge. Considering that AH rating of individual cells is added together, I'm running 1100 AH of standby! Think that will run a 100 watt rig for a little while? The type charger I'm using has been in use by railroads for their backup batteries in crossing signals for many years with minimal problems. Small parts count, and very durable. Nothing but a multi-tap transformer, a rotary switch to select voltage, a capacitor (connected across a tertiary winding, nothing else), a bridge, and a simple ammeter. I've seen these things take a lightning hit, and have nothing more wrong than the cap (about $10.00 to replace) shorted. Of course, with flooded NiCads using Potasium Hydroxide as an electrolyte, I'm not about to put them in the house! They're in an old DOT traffic signal control box sitting outside, along with the charger.

kb0nly · Post by **kb0nly** » Thu Feb 09, 2006 10:39 pm

Sounds like one heck of a backup power setup. Any pictures by chance? I'd like to see that!

RKG · Post by **RKG** » Fri Feb 10, 2006 6:29 am

The notion that charger size has no effect on the battery charging when using a smart charger is contrary to what most folk believe and have experienced in the field.

In "bulk" mode (the mode that the charger starts up in), the charger will run at full output capacity and monitor battery terminal voltage. When the voltage gets to and remains stable at the set-point (which is about 14.7VDC for flooded cells, 14.5 VDC for AGMS and 14.1 or 14.3 for gel cells (depending on manufacturer recommendation) (all values are nominal for 70F)), the charger should go to acceptance mode. In acceptance mode, it is now voltage regulated and current sensed, and it trips into float when the acceptance current reaches a given value, which should be set at 2% of the nominal battery or bank capacity.

If your charger is too big, one of two things will happen. The first is that the inrush of current will overheat the battery and destroy it (possibly in a spectacular way). The second is that it will drive internal resistance up in an unusal way (generally by bubbling the plates), thus tripping out of bulk long before bulk charging has in fact been completed. The result is a battery that doesn't get charged and, for this reason, sulphates and dies.

The rule of thumb is that charger max capacity should be between 25 and 40% of battery/bank nominal capacity.

Any so-called smart charger that isn't programmable for battery/bank size, and, therefore, doesn't care about battery/bank size, cannot be one that follows the accepted smart charging parameters, because it would have no way of knowing when the acceptance trip criteria had been met (i.e., current acceptance at acceptance voltage equals 2% of nominal capacity).

For example, the acceptance trip point for a nominal 100 AH battery would be 2A, while the trip point for a 400 AH bank would be 8A. Now if your charger trips at 2A but is applied to a 400AH bank, it will remain in acceptance too long, gas the batteries, and kill them. If, on the other hand, it trips at 8A but is working on a 100AH battery, it will trip into float prematurely, fail to fully charge the battery, and eventually sulphate and kill it.

After the earlier post, I took a look at the Iota device on the web, albeit quickly. I could not find any information about programming it for the battery/bank parameters, and that raised my eyebrows.

Edit: Note that this is NOT the same as when a battery bank is hooked up to a constant voltage charging source, such as the output of a vehicular alternator with the common constant voltage regulator. In that situation, the rating of the alternator is irrelevant, because the alternator will not put into the battery any more than the battery will accept at the regulator's fixed voltage setpoint -- which, after a few minutes, ain't much anyhow. This is a vastly different scenario than with a so-called "smart" multistage charger, where the bulk stage is current regulated and voltage sensed only for trip into acceptance. End of edit.

I also took a look at the Optima site and found the same charging instructions you reproduced. Since the gassing point of an AGM battery is well below the 15.6VDC that this data implies is acceptable, the data would seem to fly in the face of conventional knowledge of lead acid batteries.

kb0nly · Post by **kb0nly** » Fri Feb 10, 2006 8:43 am

Well all i know is that the IQ4 after careful monitoring works just at it should using the Optima.

It doesn't remain in the absorption rate too long. Eventually i plan on adding a second battery of the same type, and we will see what happens then.

And i don't have to worry about the Optima being sulphated or gassing off.

I still can't find an convincing info online about the charger only being 25-40% of battery bank capacity. Or are you talking about mainly for charging only? In my application it's not only the charger but the primary power source.

RKG · Post by **RKG** » Fri Feb 10, 2006 2:43 pm

1. Optima batteries (and all AGMs) are as susceptible to both gassing and sulphation as any other lead-acid battery.

2. Gassing is when the battery terminal voltage is held above the gassing voltage point, which is somewhere in the range of 14.8 for flooded and 14.5 for gel, with AGM's closer to flooded. At this voltage, it doesn't take much current to gas the battery. Gassing causes the electrolyte to separate and produce gas, which vents (even in a valve-regulated battery). After this happens, there is no way to replace the electrolyte in a valve-regulated battery, and it is toast.

3. Sulphation occurs when the battery is not fully recharged and then allowed to sit in a partially discharged state for some time. During discharge, the PbO2 (lead dioxide) in an sulphuric acid (H2SO4) electrolyte is converted to lead sulphate (PbSO4), which deposits on the negative plate as a white paste. During recharge, the process is reversed. However, over time the pasty PbSO4 solidifies, and when that happens the battery is sulphated.

4. Sulphation can be reversed, at least partially, in a flooded cell battery by invoking an "equalization" charge. An equalization charge is a current regulated charge with a set point of about 4% of battery nominal, with (usually) a voltage-sensed trip set at about 16-16.5VDC for safety. During equalization, the battery gasses vigorously (which is why this has to be done in a well-ventilated, non-occupied space, and under continuous immediate supervision) -- the battery will sound like a pot of boiling water. The high voltage and forced current will drive some of the solidified PbSO4 back into solution, then thence back into PbO2. After equalization, you have to replenish electrolyte. Valve-regulated batteries, such as AGMs and gel cells, cannot be equalized.

5. You would be wise to monitor the function of your device, but monitoring requires an extended (about 12 hours) period of recording not only voltage but also current flow into the batteries. Since the current is large, it cannot be measured via a conventional DVM; you have to use a current shunt.

6. The 25-40% rule of thumb has been around since the concept of bulk charging of batteries was first devised. This was conceived by a man named John Surrette during World War II for more rapidly charging teh batteries in diesel-electric submarines, though back then, of course, the multi-stage charging had to be manually (and carefully) controlled by the propulsion watch. Automatically performing multi-stage charging -- the so-called "smart" charger -- was the brain child of Randy Johnson and his partners and came about in 1992 or 1993, and was patented by them. I have the original white papers somewhere (a bold claim, since I haven't laid eyes on them for years), but no scanner. I'll see if I can find any literature on the web for you. But the rule of thumb is widely accepted.

kb0nly · Post by **kb0nly** » Fri Feb 10, 2006 2:55 pm

Well i can monitor the current being drawn on the power supply, i have a 100a shunt, 100a = 50mv, so with a little math and my DVM i can easily record the current.

When the IQ4 is in float there is about an amp of current flow to the battery, if i shut off all the radios that is to check, and if i hit the manual trip on the breaker then the current goes to zero. So i know i'm getting an accurate reading.

I have yet to monitor the current in the bulk or absorption rates, i'll have to try that when i get time.

At any rate, i'm not worried about the setup. It works and holds up as it should.

RKG · Post by **RKG** » Fri Feb 10, 2006 6:32 pm

One amp when it first goes into float is OK, but keep an eye on it. If it has been in float for 8-10 hours, the current on float should decay to 100-150 mA.

kb0nly · Post by **kb0nly** » Fri Feb 10, 2006 6:55 pm

I just checked, turned everything off and it stayed on float charge around an amp for about an hour to top it off then it dropped low enough that i can't get an accurate reading anymore, i would guess less than 250ma.

kf4sqb · Post by **kf4sqb** » Fri Feb 10, 2006 9:53 pm

kb0nly wrote:Sounds like one heck of a backup power setup. Any pictures by chance? I'd like to see that!

Scott, I haven't ever taken any pics, but I'll try to snap a few in a day or two and send you. I'll warn you in advance, though, it's not pretty....

kb0nly · Post by **kb0nly** » Fri Feb 10, 2006 10:06 pm

Well i don't care about how pretty it is, just interested in seeing it!

There is a repeater near here that has a bank of those big old telephone company batteries. I got a link saved somewhere to a page full of pictures the club put up on their website.

kb0nly · Post by **kb0nly** » Fri Feb 10, 2006 10:13 pm

http://www.w0wtn.org/repeaters_85.php

They have a really nice battery bank that is vented to the outside.

kf4sqb · Post by **kf4sqb** » Fri Feb 10, 2006 10:30 pm

Pretty nice setup.

kb0nly · Post by **kb0nly** » Fri Feb 10, 2006 10:34 pm

I like how they vented the batteries, really slick setup. If only i could get my hands on some of them batteries, i would build a box and vent setup like that and place them in the basement below the shack. They are heavy though, i think there was at least a couple pictures of two guys carrying each battery!

spareparts · Post by **spareparts** » Sat Feb 11, 2006 1:11 pm

kb0nly wrote:I like how they vented the batteries, really slick setup. If only i could get my hands on some of them batteries, i would build a box and vent setup like that and place them in the basement below the shack. They are heavy though, i think there was at least a couple pictures of two guys carrying each battery!

The vent setup is right out of the Motorola R56 site manual. I can appreciate the ingenuity in the adaptors , but the battery manufacturer has adaptors available. As a side note, small diameter tubing works just as well.

Slight critisims: They need to do some battery terminal maintaince and invest in a low voltage disconnect with an appropaitely sized K5 class fuse near the battery.

The other thing that caught my eye was the polyphasor mounted on the rack instead the cable entry panel. Lightining induced currents are now inside the shelter, instead dumping the majority of the energy into the external ground system

kb0nly · Post by **kb0nly** » Sat Feb 11, 2006 1:28 pm

I think they have an email link on the website somewhere, might be good points to mention to them.

I don't have anything to do with the site myself.

All good points though! I think the vents on the batteries were fabricated because it was easier then getting them from the battery manufacturer, and one of the club members is a plumber.

M1225 · Post by **M1225** » Mon Feb 20, 2006 4:07 pm

Nice setup you got there!!!!! I have been working on setup like yours for my base. I also am using an optima battery as the base of the setup. Right now I am only using a battery charger to keep tha battery up. It works ok but its not permanent. I was also thinking of geting an Iota but one thing that bothers me is the IQ4 equalizes the battery or according to their website it does. Now we know optima batteries are not to be equalized becouse it will shorten their life. I was wondering how is yours is holding up and if you ever see the charger equalize the battery on your volt meter?

kb0nly · Post by **kb0nly** » Mon Feb 20, 2006 5:03 pm

Still working great here! As a matter of fact i made the mistake of disconnecting some stuff under the desk one day to reoganize and the power strip that the DLS was plugged into was left unplugged by accident.

Well the radios were on, and ran for nearly 36 hours, including transmitting here and there, before i noticed that the volt meter had dropped to 11.8 volts. Crawled under and plugged it back in and it was charged and back to float later that afternoon when i checked it.

I have only seen 14.75 to 14.8v max so far. So i don't know if i just missed it doing an equalization cycle or what. I haven't been able to observe anything out of the ordinary.

M1225 · Post by **M1225** » Mon Feb 20, 2006 6:17 pm

Ahh ok thats good the voltage dont go to high. Highest voltage I have seen is 14.7 as well. I may email Iota and see what they say about using the IQ4 on a AGM battery. I wonder about the whole equalizing function of that controller. Good luck with your setup and thanks for the help!!!

kb0nly · Post by **kb0nly** » Mon Feb 20, 2006 6:28 pm

If you hear back from them let me know what they say. I emailed them and told them specifically what i was going to be using it with, an Optima that is, and they just emailed back that it would be fine since the Optima is used regularly in automotive service as a direct replacement for a flooded battery.

The Optima has a max voltage of 15.6v when doing a rapid recharge so the DLS meets that requirement.

RKG · Post by **RKG** » Mon Feb 20, 2006 6:28 pm

An equalization function is not part of the autmoatic cycling of a smart charger; it must be started manually and monitored continuously.

Basically, an equalization charge is a force feed of the battery; it is current regulated at 4-8% of the battery's/bank's nominal capacity, and is allowed to run for lesser of 6 hours or terminal voltage = 16VDC. During equalization, the battery will gas vigorously; all attached electrical equipment should be disconnected; the battery has to be well vented to the outside; and, obviously, the smoking lamp is out.

Sealed, valve-regulated batteries like the Optima should NEVER be equalized.

kb0nly · Post by **kb0nly** » Mon Feb 20, 2006 6:38 pm

Well, this setup has been running for two weeks now and i have yet to see it run an equalization though the manufacturer states it does it automatically every week?

Hmm.. Will be interesting to see how they respond to an email. I never thought of asking them about that.

M1225 · Post by **M1225** » Mon Feb 20, 2006 6:39 pm

Right never equalize an optima got that! Now it just must be something they say to sell this controller? Must not be true. I understand its not true equalizing. Just a litle confused. Heres a link to there site about it, Its says " Weekly equalization for longer battery life" http://www.iotaengineering.com/iq.htm[url]

kb0nly · Post by **kb0nly** » Mon Feb 20, 2006 6:48 pm

Well i emailed their customer support to see what they say. I do know one thing, there is a pin header jumper in the IQ4 and mine has a shorting block on it and some of them don't. Perhaps telling the dealer i bought it from that i was going to be using it for AGM they installed that jumper to disable the equalization feature??

I will have to keep a close eye on it now.

RKG · Post by **RKG** » Mon Feb 20, 2006 6:55 pm

Go back and read the literature again, something I don't have time to do right now. I suspect what it said is that it periodically restarts at bulk mode, which is OK because if the battery is fully charged, it will trip into acceptance and then into float quite quickly. No responsible charger manufacturer would ever sell a charger that went into equalization mode by itself. All require explicit operator action to start an equalization charge.

Most of the chargers I am aware of go further and disable equalization mode if the charger is programmed for valve-regulated batteries (e.g., gel cells or AGMs): even if you press the equalization-start sequence, it will be ignored.

M1225 · Post by **M1225** » Mon Feb 20, 2006 7:09 pm

I sent an email as well so we will see what they have to say about it.
One thing that is strange is that the IQ4 does not have the option to select between a flooded type battery or an AGM or gell type. That would have helped us out alot! I am also thinking that it just restarts charging like you mentioned. You would think there would be more info about it as well.

kb0nly · Post by **kb0nly** » Mon Feb 20, 2006 7:41 pm

Now that totally makes sense!

The info on the website says that if it hasn't run through a smart charge cycle in a while it will run an equalization weekly, i think what they mean is that if it hasn't it will do a full cycle starting over with bulk rate.

And the reason i will agree with that is i know for a fact that i have noticed it charging at 14.76 and then i come back later and it's back down to float. So it must have cycled through and i just didn't realize it was the weekly cycle.

jim · Post by **jim** » Mon Feb 20, 2006 8:56 pm

This is all still technical masturbation. Period.

Put the damn charger on it and leave it alone. All of these formulas, percentages, practices and book theory mean nothing with this battery. I have them out there that are 5+ years old and will still cycle and load test like they are new.

You can even charge with a 12 volt power supply through a 50 watt/15Ohm resistor to charge this battery (like with my Mastr II) and it will last for years. These batteries go for years when exposed to "24/7" 280 degree underhood temperatures and 14.6V charge voltages from alternators in ambulances that can provide 320A total charge current. Try that with your "site" battery.

A small 10 oe 20A charger couldn't hurt these batteries no matter what. A 5A trickle will charge and float 3-4 Optimas with no problem. It's proven over and over and over again.

All of this technical masturbation means nothing. What he's doing will work fine for years- I'll bet a pair of yellow Optimas on it.

kb0nly · Post by **kb0nly** » Mon Feb 20, 2006 9:16 pm

jim wrote:This is all still technical masturbation. Period.

Put the damn charger on it and leave it alone. All of these formulas, percentages, practices and book theory mean nothing with this battery. I have them out there that are 5+ years old and will still cycle and load test like they are new.

You can even charge with a 12 volt power supply through a 50 watt/15Ohm resistor to charge this battery (like with my Mastr II) and it will last for years. These batteries go for years when exposed to "24/7" 280 degree underhood temperatures and 14.6V charge voltages from alternators in ambulances that can provide 320A total charge current. Try that with your "site" battery.

A small 10 oe 20A charger couldn't hurt these batteries no matter what. A 5A trickle will charge and float 3-4 Optimas with no problem. It's proven over and over and over again.

All of this technical masturbation means nothing. What he's doing will work fine for years- I'll bet a pair of yellow Optimas on it.

And that my friends is why i bought the Optima. Comments like that all over the internet from many different types of users. From bass pros running it flat with the trolling motor to the big car stereo guys running a half dozen or more of them for thousands of watts of power.

I even saw a site with a jumping car contest, where they try to jump the car the highest they can with the hydraulic suspension, if that don't say something for their vibration rating i don't know what does.

If Iota replies i will post back just to let everyone know what they said about using an AGM with the IQ4, just in case others besides M1225 are wondering the same thing.

Bottom line, i'm not worried about it otherwise i wouldn't have left it unattended for the last two weeks!

And thanks for the comments Jim!

fineshot1 · Post by **fineshot1** » Tue Feb 21, 2006 6:49 pm

Scott - Nice choice on the power supply/charger. I too use IOTA ( DLS75 ) but use it for my 1.2ghz repeater which at present does not have the IQ4 or a battery backup yet but am working on that. I plan on installing the IQ4 and installing a battery. My DLS75 is an older model (14 inches long) but has the telephone jack style plug for the IQ4. Good work......dan n2aym

kb0nly · Post by **kb0nly** » Tue Feb 21, 2006 6:55 pm

Thanks Dan!

Also, from what i understand you can actually get the DLS supplies with a factory installed internal IQ4 now, so that's another option for someone buying a new unit. At least they still make the outboard IQ4 available for those with older supplies.

You will also notice that the IQ4 is now in a metal enclosure rather than the plastic one that they show on the website. It doesn't come with an LED indicator on the metal version, i had to add that but it's easy to do. There is an LED installed on the PCB on this metal cased version, i just removed that and wired in a panel mount one instead.

fineshot1 · Post by **fineshot1** » Tue Feb 21, 2006 7:16 pm

Thanks for the tip. I have an IQ4 on order and will probably do the same. I have been looking over several batteries and the optima was one of them. Good deal......dan n2aym

M1225 · Post by **M1225** » Wed Feb 22, 2006 11:06 am

Well finally two days later I get a response. Heres what they said "The IQ4 is designed for lead acid batteries. We do not recommend using
it for
AGM batteries." No detail or anything and no recomendations? Looks like they better change their game becouse more people are using AGMs and gells! I was thinking about geting one to, Now I question it. Hope they give you some better answers kbOnly.

RKG · Post by **RKG** » Wed Feb 22, 2006 2:39 pm

This explains the lack of any way to tell the charger what sort of battery chemistry is being employed.

(By the way, flooded cells, gel cells and AGMs are all "lead acid batteries." What Iota mean was that their charger is intended only for use with flooded cells. Frankly, the sloppy use of battery terminology may tell you something.)

As for "jim"'s outlook: this is exactly the approach that makes you the battery manufacturer's favorite customer.

Anyhow, I continue to recommend the 20A or 40A Xantrex TruCharge. It is a true three-stage charger; it uses the patented "Ideal Curve;" it is programmable for battery type and has an input for battery temperature (which adjusts the setpoints as battery temperature varies from 70F); and is otherwise foolproof. And probably doesn't cost much more.

commtek · Post by **commtek** » Wed Feb 22, 2006 5:53 pm

RKG wrote:This explains the lack of any way to tell the charger what sort of battery chemistry is being employed.

(By the way, flooded cells, gel cells and AGMs are all "lead acid batteries." What Iota mean was that their charger is intended only for use with flooded cells. Frankly, the sloppy use of battery terminology may tell you something.)

As for "jim"'s outlook: this is exactly the approach that makes you the battery manufacturer's favorite customer.

Anyhow, I continue to recommend the 20A or 40A Xantrex TruCharge. It is a true three-stage charger; it uses the patented "Ideal Curve;" it is programmable for battery type and has an input for battery temperature (which adjusts the setpoints as battery temperature varies from 70F); and is otherwise foolproof. And probably doesn't cost much more.

RKG-

Jim IS right on the money on this one. You can continue the technical masturbation if you desire. I seriously doubt anyone can change your mind, as you seem to think like an engineer, rather than a real world technician. Real world experience with these yellow top Optima batteries have proven that we are not the battery manufacturer's best friends. And yes, there are critical microwave sites where we use site approved batteries. But these sites also have natural gas auto transfer generators. Use the appropriate item for the application

kb0nly · Post by **kb0nly** » Wed Feb 22, 2006 7:56 pm

M1225, Who responded to your email from Iota? Just curious if you got a name.

I got a response tonight from one of their customer support guys and was told that it's fine to use the AGM and that it doesn't do a true equalization and that the website really needs to be reworded. He said that it's a bad translation of the manufacturer's info from overseas. What they do mean is that if it has gone a week without the battery having been pulled down enough to require a bulk charge then the IQ4 will cycle through to insure the battery is fully charged rather than just sit on float indefinitely until the battery is depleted enough to require the IQ4 to cycle.

The problem here is that if you talk to one of their people that is more of a salesperson than a technician your just going to get the usual sales jargon. Or they will just come up with an answer, the person that responded might not even know what an AGM is.

Anyway, it works fine here and i won't change a thing.

The Xantrex Trucharge looks like a nice unit, but with a MSRP of four times what i paid for my DLS i'll stick with where i am. I don't make enough money to blow that much on a charger. Not to mention that the Xantrex doesn't come in anything more than 40a in the Truecharge series.

Post by **HumHead** » Wed Feb 22, 2006 8:36 pm

Just as a by-the-by, the Iota DLS series PS and IQ4 look a LOT like the Duracomm DPS series and IQ4. (By "a lot", I mean it looks like the only difference is the label stickers.)

I wonder who actually makes them?

As an interesting aside, I am currently using a somewhat customized Duracomm setup with two DPS supplies and a customized IQ4 to manage a split 12 / 24 volt bank of four 6V cells at one of my repeater sites. The folks at Duracomm engineered this setup specifically for this application. I'll try to remember to get pictures the next time I have to go up there.

fineshot1 · Post by **fineshot1** » Wed Feb 22, 2006 8:43 pm

IOTA is the manufacture of those look alike models. I have spoke to them on the phone about it because one of the DLS75 supplies I have has another name on it as well( Power Light ). They sell alot to other marketing orgs that slap there own name on it......dan n2aym

kb0nly · Post by **kb0nly** » Wed Feb 22, 2006 8:46 pm

Wow, i never noticed that before but they are VERY similar. Also, the IQ4 shown on the DuraComm website looks like the newer version, as Iota calls it, that they now sell. The plastic case one has been discontinued.

And i notice that DuraComm says nothing about a equalization cycle. I will have to dig around their website a bit more and if nothing else email them for detailed info on the IQ4, maybe their explanation of operation is more detailed.

Here is all i can find on the website about it:

• Standby Battery “Smart Charger” / Maintainer / Controller
Need to charge and maintain a standby battery for powering critical equipment during AC Mains failures? Need to
recharge your backup battery or batteries in minimum time to be ready for the next adverse event? The
IQ-4 “Smart Charger” will silently monitor the standby battery terminal voltage and adjust the DPS ouput
voltage as required to keep the battery fully charged without destructive over-charging. The DPS output voltage
will automatically be set by the IQ-4 for optimum charge rate depending upon battery state of charge. When
the battery is fully charged the DPS output will drop to a minimum value below the trickle charge which stops
any over-charging.

kb0nly · Post by **kb0nly** » Wed Feb 22, 2006 8:49 pm

fineshot1 wrote:IOTA is the manufacture of those look alike models. I have spoke to them on the phone about it because one of the DLS75 supplies I have has another name on it as well( Power Light ). They sell alot to other marketing orgs that slap there own name on it......dan n2aym

Ahhh. That explains it then. Just another manufacturer rebrand.

I found out another one when i bought my Yaesu FT-847. The matching FP-23 power supply is actually a rebranded Samlex SEC-1223. I took one of each and opened them up, same exact components, part numbers on the PCB, all the names were exactly the same. If it ain't a rebrand then i'm a monkey's uncle.

I bought the Samlex, a lot cheaper than the Yaesu branded one that's the same.

jim · Post by **jim** » Wed Feb 22, 2006 9:51 pm

Hmmm, Eienstein.....I never had a warranty claim yet on a Optima with well over a hundred of them out there in both vehicle and backup use. Many are over 5 years old.

I have one sitting here on the floor that's 7 months out of service that's 5 years old. I just did a 30 second, 200 amp load test on it and it didn't fall under 11.6 volts after a half a minute at 200A. Pretty darn good comared to even many new batteries.

Don't try that with your $600 site battery. You might need to get you mA meter out to measure it after you load it for a few seconds.
BTW, I used a Tripp-Lite power supply which uses an internal resistor to charge this battery for 5 years, so wipe you ass with all of your formulas, percentages, unproven book theory and other technical masturbation snake oil that doesn't apply to the Optima.
Give me 5 more years and I'll prove that one will load test 100A after 10 years! By then, your site type battery will be OOS and recycled into a new battery.

kb0nly · Post by **kb0nly** » Wed Feb 22, 2006 10:26 pm

jim wrote:Hmmm, Eienstein.....I never had a warranty claim yet on a Optima with well over a hundred of them out there in both vehicle and backup use. Many are over 5 years old.

I have one sitting here on the floor that's 7 months out of service that's 5 years old. I just did a 30 second, 200 amp load test on it and it didn't fall under 11.6 volts after a half a minute at 200A. Pretty darn good comared to even many new batteries.

Don't try that with your $600 site battery. You might need to get you mA meter out to measure it after you load it for a few seconds.
BTW, I used a Tripp-Lite power supply which uses an internal resistor to charge this battery for 5 years, so wipe you ass with all of your formulas, percentages, unproven book theory and other technical masturbation snake oil that doesn't apply to the Optima.
Give me 5 more years and I'll prove that one will load test 100A after 10 years! By then, your site type battery will be OOS and recycled into a new battery.

I tell ya what Jim, it's a really big shot in the arm to hear how confident you are using the Optima. The cost was a big plus too, at a local Batteries Plus the Optima cost me $180 with tax, the Gel Cells i had before that nearly cost that much each originally when they were new, though i was the second owner so i got them for nothing, but still, the price versus durability is a big one for me.

I have already swore that if the battery in my van craps out again i am going to get an Optima red top and replace it with a battery that will probably outlast the van. I have already gone through a couple mid price range batteries in the last few years, despite the fact that i don't transmit unless the engine is running. They just couldn't withstand all this fresh cold midwest air! LOL

RFguy · Post by **RFguy** » Thu Feb 23, 2006 6:28 am

with a 12 volt power supply through a 50 watt/15Ohm resistor to charge this battery

I can't imagine that you could maintain a charge with a 150 ohm resistor. And what's up with the 50-watt size.
Even if the battery was shorted and the full 13.5 volts was across the resistor, you would only have 1.25 watts dissipation.

We have used the old Mocom 70 consolette method for cheap (and reliable) battery revert. A 4 ohm/25 watt resistor across a Schotky diode. This is in series between the existing power supply and an AGM 33 AH battery. Will give a customer battery revert on a base station. Will last for 12 to 24 hours on standard duty cycle.

I'm not suggesting that this is what should be used in a repeater, or an application that you have shown here, but works well for that tow truck, dump truck, sewer operator type base radios.

tvsjr · Post by **tvsjr** » Thu Feb 23, 2006 7:32 am

kb0nly wrote:The cost was a big plus too, at a local Batteries Plus the Optima cost me $180 with tax

Daaamn, that's even higher than the Batteries+ places around here. Do you happen to have Sam's Club nearby? I've seen the Optimas there for <$100, including the adapter kit to install in a vehicle.

kb0nly · Post by **kb0nly** » Thu Feb 23, 2006 9:06 am

Actually the Batteries Plus was the cheapest around here, it was $168.50 plus tax. I went online and couldn't find them any cheaper once you add the shipping cost. The cheapest i have seen the Optima Yellow Top was $151 at a car stereo website, but then an additional $30+ shipping. Works out to about the same price that i paid locally.

If i could find Optimas for less than $100 i would have 2-4 of them in parallel.