VHF frqs in AM versus FM over water with islands blocking ??

[Satelite]

Hello everybody:
Ok heres the situation.
Canada fly in trip on a large lake 35 miles long by 15 wide with many many islands large and small.
Last year i tried two of my GP300 5 watt portables on 2 meter ham freqs between me and another ham buddy in diferent boats out on the water.
We were disapointed with the range which seemed maybe 3 to 5 miles at best on fm boat to boat while on the water with islands scattered in such a way that straightline of sight becomes almost impossible.
So this year i went back up but me and my boy only and no radios since we wouldnt need to contact anyone else to meet for shore lunch ect.
But talking to the float plane pilots they all pretty much said that they could talk aprox 25 miles on bendix king and icom portables on the 122.000 aviation band in am mode while in the boat back to the logde to another portable WITHOUT it being hooked up to a outside antenae up in the air. ( portable to portable)
I understand that Aircraft is for air use and not water ect but im asking if AM beats FM on water for range when islands are a big problem.
And if anyone was aware of a AM portable that could be used if it was a better choice on water/islands over fm ?
I do have a ham license but im only a technition and really had not planned on going any higher in the ham stuff due to my area being pretty much ham private individuals and they dont seem to chat much as far as i can tell- just an ocasional hobby for most i think.
I was planning on taking two 6 meter portables at 6 watts at 52.500
mhz to try out and see if it would do the trick or not but as already mentioned i didnt have anyone else go up with me this year that i could have experimented with them.
I do not and will not consider a 27 mhz cb portable = They dont work well here so i really dont see how they could work in canada.
Im not interested in any mobile setups eigther.
If i cant do it with a portable them i just wont do it - I qeuss
Again i say it = I know i cant use am aicraft band freqs out on the water legaly and since i dont have the avionics license as well that pretty well eliminates it.
But i am interested in the AM versus FM over water with islands for tx distances as far as possible up to25 miles if its even possible with a portable.
I know long post but give me your opinions.
Thank you.
Satelite

[RadioSouth]

Results should be similar between Air and 2m. Both VHF and range about 10-30 MHz apart, portables in both services operate at similar power levels. AM vs. FM ? AM definetely more influenced by manmade noise but doesn't sound like much of a factor where you're talking about unless they're inhabited islands and then FM would win.

[escomm]

the signal propagation is going to be comparable, you will rarely get more than 3-5 miles simplex and since there are obstructions you're lucky you're even getting that... the reason the pilots have such good coverage is because they are in the air...

my friend has his own plane and when he flew back from DC and was over Ohio he was making contacts in 5 states on 2 meters...

[Satelite]

Hello :
yes i realize the pilots in the air will get better range.
But these pilots are telling me they are getting close to 25 miles portable to portable on the water in a boat back to base camp to another portable NOT hooked up to a external antenae.
Just portable to portable.
So eigther ive had enough smoke blown up my @$$ that canibals will favor me or the AM must be the winner to get it done.
And yes i had the same thought mentioned above that 122 and 144 wasnt far enough apart to be the answer so i figured possibly AM versus FM could be.
They mentioned a Icom portable and a Bendix King BX911 as the two radios used to do this.
But i couldnt find any info on a Bx911 but did find a Bendix King BK99 and it appears to be 1.5 watts only as near as i can tell.
I dont know what to think.
Satelite

[Tom in D.C.]

You might want to do some research about the signal propagation differences between
FM and AM signals. The differences are real and substantial. Most of the VHF
HT manufacturers also make AM aircraft HTs, but they're hard to find because
they're sold mostly through specialty outlets. I don't know of anyone who makes
a hamband AM HT these days. Years ago it was common to get DFQ signals at
a distance of 15 to 20 miles on AM simplex on 146 mHz using transmitters with an
output of about 5 watts while using simple, indoor, vertical, quarter-wave antennas.

[HLA]

any chance of putting up a tower somewhere in the middle and just use a repeater? from what you are saying you probablly won't get a good point to point even if you had 100 watt mobiles going simplex?

[nmfire10]

I find 25 miles portable-to-portable very unlikely. It is likely the people making those claims are a little off.

[mike m]

Why not pick up a couple of Vertex VXA-700 Spirit HT's and try the difference between AM and FM.

This HT is a VHF AM avionics and 2 meter ham HT in one.

I know I'll have a bunch of people jumping in saying don't tx on the avionics band but if you picked a discrete unused COMM frequency, and not 121.5 Megs, and did a quick test I doubt anyone would complain.

I also doubt that AM mode will work any better than FM.

[Satelite]

Hello :
Yes the thought of putting up a repeater had crossed my mind but im a USA citizen with the fishing and hunting post that i go to only once a year are canadian.
So me putting up a repeater there probably as far as i can see would require pumping sunlight to me when they caught me.
I like a sun tan =
I have thought about asking them if theyd consider putting one up if i supplied the equipment but they pretty much already have coms in use that meet thier needs as to avionics simplex towers so the simplex back and forth on avionics ground licenses they were granted on descrete freqs to the 60 ft towers at each base/lodge location pretty well covers them.
Im on the water wanting to chat to my fellow fish/hunt partners some how legaly without worring abot that officer in the float plane dropping in to say ( No not hello = more like lets see your licenes and probably going to get around to -what type of radio you got there?)

Also each base camp has only one portable they use with bases and of course the radios in the float planes.
So id be relunctant to ask to borrow one from two camps when they use them so much themselves.
Id qeuss old Satelite might be truly SCREWED here on this one for long range between say a moose hunting party split up say 25 miles apart.
Another qestion i have is the one camp lady says she just punches in 234 and she is on her discrete freq away from the airport they talk to normaly.
Is she talking on 122.234 or would it be a saved ch ?
I did notice it was a older looking Icom portable - Dont know the M/N.
Oh well not my first lost battle with more to come im sure.
Satelite
Satelite

[mt1000ff]

I have used BK KX99 portables on 121.8 and 118.0 AM in airfield crash rescue settings. I have found them or AM to be extremly unpredicatable. Sometimes we could not talk to each other when we could see the other crash truck. I would doubt 25 miles portable to portable. If it did happen both would have to be in just the exact spot, and it most likely would not happen the next time.

[bellersley]

6m is your friend.

I was able to use my MT1000 to talk to a mobile on simplex that was easily 20km away, over very hilly terrain.

[Satelite]

Hello :
You must have read my mind.
From the above replies i too figured 6mm was my best choice.
I have three Mt1000 that do 52.500 simplex and have decided they would be the best choice i could have at the moment.
Figure on bringing a Maxtrac base setup i have converted to 6mm and a mobile antenae that id side mount temporarily on the 6o ft tower at base camp for contact to let them know if we are staying out that night and not returning to base camp that night so they dont send out the search planes ect.
As far as hunter to hunter we would be no further than 5 miles apart and figured i could get coms to him that far simplex portable to portable.
Then use the 52.500 into the camp base if needed info into them or require help in removing a moose kill ect per camp tendees ect.
It seems to be my best answer at the moment and im thinking it would acomplish what i needed for coms ect.
I apreciate everyones input as the replies pretty much confirmed my suspicions and were of great value to me.
But any other sugestions would be greatly apreciated still.
Thank you
Satelite