APX-7500 Recorder Output

[TX_Shooter]

Does anyone know or have actual experience feeding an APX7500 to a recorder in any way, analog or digital? If so, how?

Thanks,
Shooter

[Bill_G]

Well, like all your other recent APX questions, if it's in a consolette configuration, you're lucky. It should have a telco line interface that you can bridge to feed plain old audio to a logging recorder. But, if it's in a mobile configuration, you get to McGuiver something.

[jland138]

Same as the XTL. Remote head with a HKN6187B cable.

http://shopwiscomm.com/HKN6187B-HKN6187 ... 74008.aspx

One of the 2.5mm plugs is for a headset which cuts off the speaker, the other is a recorder output.
Be sure to enable this audio output in CPS.

[TX_Shooter]

But, if it's in a mobile configuration, you get to McGuiver something.

It's a mobile on a desktop HLN6042(?) speaker... no consolette on this one.

Same as the XTL. Remote head with a HKN6187B cable.

I'm not at all familiar with this APX radio... could the head that comes with the unit be removed for remoting, and then this cable be added to it in order to give us what we need? If so, what other cable would be needed to connect the stock head to the base radio?

[jland138]

Yes, you can use a remote kit that includes the bezels and bits to make this work. Not sure if the remote kit depends on the type of head you have (O2, O5 or O7). The remote cables between the head and transceiver are the same (HKN6170, 10 ft, HKN6169, 17 ft, etc).

Motorola's "APX Mobiles O2, O3, O5, O7 & O9 Control Head Installation Manual" has lots of information and diagrams. Section 4.2.6 describes the cable for record audio and Figure -2-47 has the cable diagram and CPS hints.

[TX_Shooter]

Yes, you can use a remote kit that includes the bezels and bits to make this work. Not sure if the remote kit depends on the type of head you have (O2, O5 or O7). The remote cables between the head and transceiver are the same (HKN6170, 10 ft, HKN6169, 17 ft, etc).

Motorola's "APX Mobiles O2, O3, O5, O7 & O9 Control Head Installation Manual" has lots of information and diagrams. Section 4.2.6 describes the cable for record audio and Figure -2-47 has the cable diagram and CPS hints.

Thank you, jland138.

I found a copy of that manual (see below) and it does contain some useful information. Unfortunately I still can't ascertain what model the stock head is on the APX7500. I would like to be able to inform the customer of this and assure them that this would work by simply installing a few cables. I'd hate to mislead them on a path that requires a certain level of experimentation and a parts order that isn't going to work. But hey, at least this is a start.

I will say that I was pleasantly surprised to find out that this radio supported multiple heads that could be connected at the same time. I wonder... what do you suppose is the maximum distance these heads could be placed from the base radio, and what is it that sets that limit? Would you think that if it is just because of the longest length of cable sold, we could perhaps modify that cable for longer runs? (i.e. Install the base 200+ feet away in a Com room, but put the control head in front of the operator, and may be use Cat6 to patch between?)

One of the biggest obstacles that our customers faces, not just this location but all of our work sites, is that these radios (without the consolette) were mandated by someone in DC as a solution to upgrading the XTL5000's, and that they're not something that the local Motorola Dealers can help with, thus limiting their questions and concerns to what they can find on the internet. The only reason me and my company get involved is because we have to interface with these APX radios someway somehow, and sometimes we can help from previous experience or this forum... not much from us for things like this, but some.

ref: http://www.staleycom.com/documents/manu ... -2013_.pdf

[Jim202]

Many of your questions are answered in the document that you have supplied a link to. The installation manual is a wealth of information.

Maybe you could spend some time reading time reading it and not asking the simple questions that you seem to keep posting new threads on.

As one that indicates they are in the field of working with customers and trying to do work for them on a radio system modifications, you seem to continually expect the group here to keep supporting you. You ask questions that are vague and lacking details enough to have anyone provide a reasonable answer. You obtain answers from the group and seem to ignore what people are telling you. Eventually you will find that you will not get any answers at all.

Bill G has responded recently with a comment along these same lines.

As one that has been in this field many years and mentored many younger people coming into this field I have taken the time to pass along my knowledge to those looking for it. But in your case, I think there seems to be some sort of road blockage that is preventing this absorption of this knowledge. Plus you seem to expect that all of us on here to continue to support your lack of listening to the given facts. Don't blame us when your plans on how a radio connection should work and doesn't. Don't pass the buck on not planning out a project with a customer because you designed it wrong and then came here looking for us to bail you out. By then it's too late. Your going to have to learn to plan a project ahead of time and obtain the correct parts and equipment to make it work.

If the local Motorola shop wouldn't do it, there probably was a reason.

Jim

[Bill_G]

Shooter - I don't know the absolute limit the trunk unit can be separated from the head, but let's assume it's not very far since the product was designed for a mobile application. Since you are restricted to this model by your customer's choices, put the radio some place close to the operator, and run the antenna line to the radio. At least those are losses you can calculate and guarantee.

As for the logging recorder - If all you want to log is the rx, then you can peel it off the speaker leads. Be sure to use an isolation transformer for DC blocking, and some 600 to 1K ohm resistors to knock the level down. Obviously not the best solution since the operator will ultimately change the record level with the volume control. It is what it is. Sometimes people paint themselves into a corner.

[escomm]

HKN6164A -
CABLE, ASSEMBLY,CABLE,REMOTE MOUNT,131 FT

[Bill_G]

That's a really long truck!

[TX_Shooter]

Shooter - I don't know the absolute limit the trunk unit can be separated from the head, but let's assume it's not very far since the product was designed for a mobile application.

I'm with you on that, and unfortunately, these were sold to be used in a non-mobile application.

Since you are restricted to this model by your customer's choices...

Close, but that's not entirely the truth... they (the US Air National Guard) were mandated by someone in DC, who was sold on the idea by a sales rep from Motorola Federal that these APX7500 are a perfect replacement for the XTL5000 Desktop Consolettes. To wit, I now know (thanks to this forum) that they are not a perfect replacement. I'm sure that they're great for vehicular installations, but... not for our projects. It's unfortunate because most of these local Motorola Dealers don't have the ability to support these radios, even if a dealer is available in the area to which these were installed.

As for the logging recorder - If all you want to log is the rx, then you can peel it off the speaker leads. Be sure to use an isolation transformer for DC blocking, and some 600 to 1K ohm resistors to knock the level down. Obviously not the best solution since the operator will ultimately change the record level with the volume control. It is what it is. Sometimes people paint themselves into a corner.

Currently that's how they have this system wired (picking the recorder feed from the speaker output), but without the isolation transformer... I wasn't aware that there was DC on the line, but so far that hasn't been an issue here, OTHER than they are only getting RX to the recorder where they also need the TX side. (These PBX projects typically ship with components from RDL (Radio Design Labs) that might do what you're talking about... the "STD-600" 4x600 Ohm Isolation Transformer Coupler/Divider. Would something like that be useful here?)

Another component that ships with these projects (also made by RDL) is the LCR1... a DPDT relay that can be triggered 3 different ways. What I'm thinking that we're going to need to do is have this relay flip back and forth between the RX feed from the radio and the TX feed to the radio, and have the common side of the relays feed the logging recorder. When the radio goes into Transmit driven by our PTT, that PTT also drives this relay to flip. It's not elegant, and sometimes we don't have enough of these relays, but it is effective. We've done this before on some military grade UHF/VHF radios successfully. Do you have any thoughts or concerns on this idea for this radio?

Thanks for the answer Bill,
Shooter

ref: STD-600 = http://www.rdlnet.com/product.php?page=351
ref: LCR1 = http://www.rdlnet.com/product.php?page=94

[TX_Shooter]

HKN6164A -
CABLE, ASSEMBLY,CABLE,REMOTE MOUNT,131 FT

I agree with Bill... that really IS a long truck. lol

Thanks for the part number. I'll pass this along to our customer. At $120/ea on shopwiscomm, it might help them with another scenario for a not-so-bad price.

-Shooter

[TX_Shooter]

Many of your questions are answered in the document that you have supplied a link to. The installation manual is a wealth of information.

Maybe you could spend some time reading time reading it and not asking the simple questions that you seem to keep posting new threads on.

As one that indicates they are in the field of working with customers and trying to do work for them on a radio system modifications, you seem to continually expect the group here to keep supporting you. You ask questions that are vague and lacking details enough to have anyone provide a reasonable answer. You obtain answers from the group and seem to ignore what people are telling you. Eventually you will find that you will not get any answers at all.

Bill G has responded recently with a comment along these same lines.

As one that has been in this field many years and mentored many younger people coming into this field I have taken the time to pass along my knowledge to those looking for it. But in your case, I think there seems to be some sort of road blockage that is preventing this absorption of this knowledge. Plus you seem to expect that all of us on here to continue to support your lack of listening to the given facts. Don't blame us when your plans on how a radio connection should work and doesn't. Don't pass the buck on not planning out a project with a customer because you designed it wrong and then came here looking for us to bail you out. By then it's too late. Your going to have to learn to plan a project ahead of time and obtain the correct parts and equipment to make it work.

If the local Motorola shop wouldn't do it, there probably was a reason.

Jim

Let's get a few things straight...

This is NOT my design, nor our customers'. This is what we've been dealt, and there's a very serious lack of support that our customers can call upon for help, through no fault of their own. It's not my job to fix their issues, but without their issues fixed, wired properly, or functioning as required, I can't properly integrate my system AS IT WAS SOLD... I'm just the proverbial Wire Monkey that has to make it all work, even though parts of it aren't my responsibility. So, folks like me step in to TRY and help them out. More often than not, the questions that I pose here on this forum are mostly derived by them. I guess you could say that I'm the fortunate one in that I know of this forum and sometimes can get answers this way instead of them trying to find a regional dealer that won't help unless he's paid to do so. (Or, perhaps I'm the 'unfortunate' one. lol)

I started down this road of using this forum solely because of a Google Search for answers. Yes, I do realize that it would be very helpful to read what manuals I can access, but not all manuals are available to me, let alone directly cover the sole little topic that I'm seeking answers to. To date, I've read or thumbed through 4 different manuals on this one radio alone.

Also, I work pretty much 10-12/day on these projects, and by the time I get back to my hotel and back to the 200+ page manual that MIGHT glean some answers, I'm pretty freakin' wore out. So yes, I pose questions here that perhaps I could find on my own, but dadgumit, if someone else has a quick and fast answer, you're dadgum straight I'm gonna take advantage of it! I do my due diligence in that I attempt to find answers elsewhere before coming to this forum, but I'm limited on where I can search. The APX7500 isn't exactly a model that has been around a long while, let alone installed at every Tom, Dick, and Harry's Motorola Radio Center.

I apologize for the way my response may sound, as I do realize that you all here don't have to help me, but please, try to see this scenario through my eyes. I'm more or less stuck between a rock and a hard place through no design of my own, nor our customer's. I'm just seeking answers.

-Shooter

[Will]

J601 Rear Accessory Flex Connector: Table 7.5 in the service manual.
Pin 30 on the 32 pin connector is Receiver filtered audio.
Pin 32 is ground.

That can be routed to a recorder input. This output is low level and independent of volume control ect.

I have used a 2 uf non polarized capacitor and a 2.2 K resistor in series with this type of output.

Record_Out TP226 in Audio Section.

[TX_Shooter]

J601 Rear Accessory Flex Connector: Table 7.5 in the service manual.
Pin 30 on the 32 pin connector is Receiver filtered audio.
Pin 32 is ground.

That can be routed to a recorder input. This output is low level and independent of volume control ect.

I have used a 2 uf non polarized capacitor and a 2.2 K resistor in series with this type of output.

Record_Out TP226 in Audio Section.

Is this not the same thing as Pin 21 on J2, the rear accessory connector?

[wavetar]

What I've done in the past to get the TX audio in similar situations (Astro Spectras) was to change out the desktop Spectra mic cable with a Maxtrac 8 pin cable. Plug the 8-pin cable into an RJ45 junction wall box, wire the Spectra cable into the box, and plug it into the radio. Tap a mic-hi and ground wire out of the box, and run it into the logger. Yeah, it's a different audio pair than the receive, and so it ends up on two separate audio tracks in the logger, but it's better than nothing. I believe you'll need to use a DC blocking capacitor on the mic-hi line to the logger, as well. That can also be located in the phone box. This concept should also work for the APX GCAI connector.

The other, easier way is to use a dedicated radio on the channel to receive & log the audio from it's filtered RX audio pin. This way, you hear all the transmissions, including all the dispatchers, and log it all on the same audio track...but that only works if all your traffic is on a single channel. Each extra channel would require an extra base station radio for logging.

[TX_Shooter]

What I've done in the past to get the TX audio in similar situations (Astro Spectras) was to change out the desktop Spectra mic cable with a Maxtrac 8 pin cable. Plug the 8-pin cable into an RJ45 junction wall box, wire the Spectra cable into the box, and plug it into the radio. Tap a mic-hi and ground wire out of the box, and run it into the logger. Yeah, it's a different audio pair than the receive, and so it ends up on two separate audio tracks in the logger, but it's better than nothing. I believe you'll need to use a DC blocking capacitor on the mic-hi line to the logger, as well. That can also be located in the phone box. This concept should also work for the APX GCAI connector.

I'll have to think about that one. If we were to go that route, we have 600 ohm combiners (4x isolating/coupling transformers) that perhaps we could take the mic audio from the front and couple it with the RX audio on the back?

The other, easier way is to use a dedicated radio on the channel to receive & log the audio from it's filtered RX audio pin. This way, you hear all the transmissions, including all the dispatchers, and log it all on the same audio track...but that only works if all your traffic is on a single channel. Each extra channel would require an extra base station radio for logging.

We've done this before at another location for 2x channels, but they had those radios in stock and an antenna array already in place from a previous setup. Unfortunately, the budget has already been set and spent on this project from nearly a year ago... we're dealing with an Air National Guard Base.

[TX_Shooter]

Pin 21 on the rear connector worked after we changed the setting to "RX+TX" for the Record Out.

[wavetar]

Pin 21 on the rear connector worked after we changed the setting to "RX+TX" for the Record Out.

Thanks for the update, very good to know. I've seen that setting in the XTL2500, but hadn't worked with it, and didn't know if there was a corresponding setting in the APX mobiles.

[webby52]

Bought the cable but still no analog audio in remote head when radio is hooked to MIP 5000 via rear accessory cable when plugged into gateway. Unplug rear cable and audio is present. So the question is can you pull the audio off pin 21 while the MIP 5000 is using the same audio to the console? I need to hear the dispatchers for logging and in house audio system for PD.

[jmfirefighter20]

I just got ours set up today. I have an APX7500 high power, with the HKN6187B, appropriate check box in the CPS for TX/RX audio out, and going into our new TeleCorder, we have good TX and RX audio out. Make sure you're using a 2.5mm MONO plug. It works great!

[webby52]

Really? Do you have the rear accessory cable connected to a console? Ours is connected to the digital gateway and there is no longer audio sent to the control head. The speaker stops working and all. When I unplug the rear cable disabling the connection to the gateway, the audio then emits from the speaker attached to the remote head. I confirmed this with Motorola, and they said the only audio that would be present is on pin 21. Tomorrow I am going to open the rear accessory connector and see if I can tap into the wire on pin 21 to pull the audio for logging. I just hope it doesnt affect the MIP5000 console.

[jmfirefighter20]

Really? Do you have the rear accessory cable connected to a console? Ours is connected to the digital gateway and there is no longer audio sent to the control head. The speaker stops working and all. When I unplug the rear cable disabling the connection to the gateway, the audio then emits from the speaker attached to the remote head. I confirmed this with Motorola, and they said the only audio that would be present is on pin 21. Tomorrow I am going to open the rear accessory connector and see if I can tap into the wire on pin 21 to pull the audio for logging. I just hope it doesnt affect the MIP5000 console.

Sorry, my setup is on a high power mobile. The original thread was regarding a mobile setup on a desk (no consolette.)