Motorola Trunking Help

[madfrenchie]

Hello,

To start off with I've had a 800 MHZ Motorola Trunking System donated to me by a local business. The system is quite old but I would like to use it as a learning tool. I'm looking for someone to either point me in the direction of documentation / how to's or help walk me though how the system works.

I do have quite a bit of knowledge about Radios and repeaters. I do all the programming for the local Fire / Police / Ambulance departments, as well as maintain their repeaters. I have never worked with Trunking systems before, so this is a pure learning experience and this system will never be used for anything else.


What we received is what I assume is the Trunking Controller, 5 repeaters, and the duplexer cans.

I have included some pictures of the equipment we received. The information I would like to obtain to begin with is details about the Trunking Controller, and what each of the cards in the cage do, and how they are operated.

I have all the cables / connections, and have an Idea on how the Repeaters connect to the Controller (Cables / Repeaters were labeled Chanel 1, Channel 2, and so on. )

4 of the repeaters are MSF5000, and one is a MSR2000

The system was just taken offline last week and replaced with a newer system.

Thank you ahead of time to anyone who is willing to help me out with this.



Thank You.

[d119]

The manuals for this stuff are probably available on eBay, but I'm not sure how you can operate this thing without creating an FCC licensing issue... And this equipment is EXTREMELY old.

What you have is called a "6809 Central Controller". It might be Privacy Plus, it might be SmartNet. It might be Type I, it might be Type II.

Did you get an as-built for it, or any documentation?

Personally, I'd run like hell from any of this (especially if it's 800MHz), but that's just my $0.02.

Lets see if I can remember any of this correctly:

CSC = Central Site Controller
RSC = Receive Site Controller
TSC = Transmit Site Controller
IRB = Inbound Recovery Board
RIB = Receiver Interface Board
TIB = Transmitter Interface Board
ACB = Alarm Control Board

[madfrenchie]

Thank you very much for your reply, at least now I know what CSC, RSC, and TSC, etc... means. Right now I have it all set up in my basement with a dummy load on the TX side... therefore if you are more then 10 feet away from the system you get zero signal, so I'm not worried about the FCC. Again, I'm just using this as a learning platform, if i get nowhere in 6 months well at least I learned a bit while getting there. This system will NEVER be put in production.

I read the codeplug in the radios and it seems to be a type II system, at the bottom of the programming window it also says Privacy Plus Radio, so does that mean its both?

I didn't get any information, or documentation with the unit. I just got a bunch of radios, 5 repeaters, cables, duplexer cans, and the controller.

I saw the manuals on E-Bay, but was hoping someone on here had a PDF version of it, I hate reading paper copy manuals, haha.

The system came to me working, but during transportation some of the buttons have been depressed. Therefore my biggest issue right now is I have no idea which buttons are supposed to be pressed in or not.

Another question I have, is I noticed the controller cards have batteries on them, I have no idea if those batteries are good or not (Haven't put a tester to them yet) If one of those batteries are dead, is there important programming in that card that needs to be replaced?

Again thank you for your reply, and for any help you are able to provide.

The manuals for this stuff are probably available on eBay, but I'm not sure how you can operate this thing without creating an FCC licensing issue... And this equipment is EXTREMELY old.

What you have is called a "6809 Central Controller". It might be Privacy Plus, it might be SmartNet. It might be Type I, it might be Type II.

Did you get an as-built for it, or any documentation?

Personally, I'd run like hell from any of this (especially if it's 800MHz), but that's just my $0.02.

Lets see if I can remember any of this correctly:

CSC = Central Site Controller
RSC = Receive Site Controller
TSC = Transmit Site Controller
IRB = Inbound Recovery Board
RIB = Receiver Interface Board
TIB = Transmitter Interface Board
ACB = Alarm Control Board

[motorola_otaku]

Are you positive the fifth repeater is a MSR2000, or a Micor?

I was never aware of the MSR2000 ever being offered in anything except for VHF/UHF.

[madfrenchie]

Are you positive the fifth repeater is a MSR2000, or a Micor?

I was never aware of the MSR2000 ever being offered in anything except for VHF/UHF.

Here is a picture of it.

[wavetar]

The buttons on the RIB and TIB cards should all be 'out' for the first 5 channels. The 6 & 7 buttons don't really matter since the system is only 5-channel. Also, any button labeled 'disable' should out as well.

If the batteries in the cards are flat, you'll likely have lost all the programmable parameters for the system, but the good news is that they can be reprogrammed. The data for the system basics such as number of channels, frequencies, connect tone, etc are all on a PROM, so no issues there.

Sounds like you have the radios too, so once you fire the system up with the buttons out as described above, if the radios work, your programmable parameters are likely intact.

The manuals to look for are SmartNet/6809 trunking manuals.

[madfrenchie]

The buttons on the RIB and TIB cards should all be 'out' for the first 5 channels. The 6 & 7 buttons don't really matter since the system is only 5-channel. Also, any button labeled 'disable' should out as well.

If the batteries in the cards are flat, you'll likely have lost all the programmable parameters for the system, but the good news is that they can be reprogrammed. The data for the system basics such as number of channels, frequencies, connect tone, etc are all on a PROM, so no issues there.

Sounds like you have the radios too, so once you fire the system up with the buttons out as described above, if the radios work, your programmable parameters are likely intact.

The manuals to look for are SmartNet/6809 trunking manuals.

Ok, so that answered ALOT of my questions haha.. I have the proper cables to program the repeaters, and Radios but what cable is needed to program the controller? and what port on the controller does it connect into?

I'm looking at changing the frequencies in the repeaters, due to the fact that the location still uses one of the frequencies. I'm assuming that those frequencies are also programmed into the controller?

[escomm]

Yes, and unfortunately without a codeplug chip from Motorola (about $2500 last I checked a couple years ago, not sure they're still available) or access to the R34 software, which I've not been able to actually lay hands on despite almost 10 years of trying!

[madfrenchie]

Yes, and unfortunately without a codeplug chip from Motorola (about $2500 last I checked a couple years ago, not sure they're still available) or access to the R34 software, which I've not been able to actually lay hands on despite almost 10 years of trying!

Ok, well now I don't like you anymore.. haha That basically ruins my plans to use this to learn from, I was hoping all I had to do was change the frequencies in the repeaters.

Is there any value in parting out the controller and selling on e-bay?

[motorola_otaku]

Are you positive the fifth repeater is a MSR2000, or a Micor?

I was never aware of the MSR2000 ever being offered in anything except for VHF/UHF.

Here is a picture of it.

Okay, you have my piqued my curiosity. What's the model number on the tag, and can you pull the RF boards (behind the MOTOROLA MSR2000 plate) and take pics of the channel elements?

An 800 MHz MSR2000 would be a new find for the community, especially one interfaced to a 6809 controller with a Zetron interface (!)


edit: I see what also appears to be a T/R relay below the PA. Curiouser and curiouser...

[madfrenchie]

Are you positive the fifth repeater is a MSR2000, or a Micor?

I was never aware of the MSR2000 ever being offered in anything except for VHF/UHF.

Here is a picture of it.

Okay, you have my piqued my curiosity. What's the model number on the tag, and can you pull the RF boards (behind the MOTOROLA MSR2000 plate) and take pics of the channel elements?

An 800 MHz MSR2000 would be a new find for the community, especially one interfaced to a 6809 controller with a Zetron interface (!)


edit: I see what also appears to be a T/R relay below the PA. Curiouser and curiouser...

Haha.. I will get that information / pictures for you tomorrow. I assure you.. it really is an 800 MHZ repeater. Still in working condition too.

[madfrenchie]

Boy don't I look like a fool..

Well apparently they had a VHF Paging system installed and the MSR2000 was the transmitter for it.

Both TX and RX are on the same frequency, with what looks like a small relay on the Antenna.

[d119]

The Zetron TX controller was a dead giveaway it was a paging station.

There's little to no value in this stuff, unfortunately. If you want to sell it, the only people likely to consider buying it would be Sunny Communications in Colorado, but they likely have too much of it as it is.

[Astro Spectra]

Grab yourself an eBay Quantar and configure it for 6809 operation in your band of choice. I've seen and purchased $200 800 MHz examples.

[d119]

Grab yourself an eBay Quantar and configure it for 6809 operation in your band of choice. I've seen and purchased $200 800 MHz examples.

I still say where are you going to get a license to operate this... Sure is an expensive way to learn... Though that really is the pot calling the kettle black on my part...

I say give Sunny Communications a call and see if they want the controller, pull the control decks from the MSF's and shitcan the rest for scrap... Use whatever you get for it to buy something a bit more useful.

Oh and pull the Zetron TX controller out of that MSR, save the Zetron and shitcan that MSR, it's wideband and no longer legal to operate, and hams can afford (read: get for free) newer, better stuff these days

[madfrenchie]

Grab yourself an eBay Quantar and configure it for 6809 operation in your band of choice. I've seen and purchased $200 800 MHz examples.

I still say where are you going to get a license to operate this... Sure is an expensive way to learn... Though that really is the pot calling the kettle black on my part...

I say give Sunny Communications a call and see if they want the controller, pull the control decks from the MSF's and shitcan the rest for scrap... Use whatever you get for it to buy something a bit more useful.

Oh and pull the Zetron TX controller out of that MSR, save the Zetron and shitcan that MSR, it's wideband and no longer legal to operate, and hams can afford (read: get for free) newer, better stuff these days

I have no "Need" to set up a trunking system. My goal was to learn how this one I had worked, and operated. I like to tinker around with things, and see how they work. It was more a learning experience then anything else. As far as the license goes, I have a dummy load connected to the TX Antenna, so if your standing more then 5 feet away from the setup you get zero signal.

I never intended for this to be used as a production unit, I just wanted to learn how they worked, how they were programmed, and get a crash course in Trunking. I deal alot with standard repeaters, and manage quite a large fleet of radios /repeaters. I just never worked with a Trunking system. Since this was going to cost me nothing to learn from, I figured.. "what do i have to loose"

Once I learned it wouldn't be easy to get it going, I gave up and figured I'd just get rid of everything for cheep.

I do thank those who provided me with answers to my questions, I did learn alot from the people on this forum on how this system is supposed to operate and how its programmed. I still have TONS of questions trunking and will still be looking up information on how this system once operated. Its a topic that really interests me.

[d119]

Well, we are here to answer any questions you may have, so fire away!

[madfrenchie]

Well, we are here to answer any questions you may have, so fire away!

Haha... ok you asked for it..

After learning about the difficulties I gave up and didn't connect all the repeaters to the controller.

But I did notice when I turn on a repeater (One that is not plugged into the controller) It transmits what I assume to be a control signal constantly, but I thought the control signal was generated from the controller, not the individual repeaters.

I turned 3 of the 5 repeaters and they all transmit the control signal right away. I assume by plugging them all into the controller it would only allow one repeater to transmit the control tone.


So my question really is, Isn't the continuous control tone generated at the controller and not the repeaters, and if so what are these repeaters transmitting when they are powered up not connected to the controller.

[d119]

The constant signal you are hearing is called "Failsoft", and is what happens when a base station loses connection to the central controller. It tells all the radios listening to it to switch to a conventional type of operation and use that repeater as if it were just conventional. Everyone hears everyone.

[madfrenchie]

The constant signal you are hearing is called "Failsoft", and is what happens when a base station loses connection to the central controller. It tells all the radios listening to it to switch to a conventional type of operation and use that repeater as if it were just conventional. Everyone hears everyone.

That makes sense!!

I connected the repeaters to the controller exactly the way they were before the system was taken down, and all the repeaters emit that failsoft tone.

I am guessing that means the batteries on the controller were dead so when the system was unplugged they lost all their memory...

[wavetar]

The constant signal you are hearing is called "Failsoft", and is what happens when a base station loses connection to the central controller. It tells all the radios listening to it to switch to a conventional type of operation and use that repeater as if it were just conventional. Everyone hears everyone.

That makes sense!!

I connected the repeaters to the controller exactly the way they were before the system was taken down, and all the repeaters emit that failsoft tone.

I am guessing that means the batteries on the controller were dead so when the system was unplugged they lost all their memory...

No, I as said before, the 'codeplug', or 'personality' of the system is kept on a PROM, so it doesn't go away. This information includes things like, number of repeaters in the system, repeater frequencies, the 'steps' in KHz between each repeater frequency, connect tone, whether there is a phone interconnect, and other stuff I don't recall at the moment. With just the PROM information, the system should function to the point where the repeaters should come online, with the first (typically) being constantly transmitting as the control channel, and the others sitting idle waiting for a channel assignment from the controller. Look on the CSC board to see if the PROM is there or if it's just an empty socket...its possible they removed it. If it's there, the system should be able to function, although you may not be able to access it with a radio, as the subscriber records are kept in NVRAM and would be gone if the batteries are flat (likely). Make sure all the channel buttons in the TIB and RIB are not in the 'disable' position.

If you can get it to the point where the repeaters are not in failsoft, and one of them is an active control channel, from that point it's a matter of getting your hands on a SmartNet trunking manual. The system is accessed via RS-232 through one of the DB ports at the top of the cabinet (don't recall which, offhand, but believe it's labeled "CSC" or "CAS" or something to that effect. I always used a software called "CAS" (Controller Access Software) to program, but bitccom/hyperterminal/procomm can work as well.

The easiest thing to do initially is set SAC records to 'off', that way the system is wide open and any properly programmed radio would then work regardless of it's programmed ID. After that, you're off to the races for learning.

You could try & get in touch with the shop that serviced the system. for a nominal fee they might set you up with what you need.

[madfrenchie]

The constant signal you are hearing is called "Failsoft", and is what happens when a base station loses connection to the central controller. It tells all the radios listening to it to switch to a conventional type of operation and use that repeater as if it were just conventional. Everyone hears everyone.

That makes sense!!

I connected the repeaters to the controller exactly the way they were before the system was taken down, and all the repeaters emit that failsoft tone.

I am guessing that means the batteries on the controller were dead so when the system was unplugged they lost all their memory...

No, I as said before, the 'codeplug', or 'personality' of the system is kept on a PROM, so it doesn't go away. This information includes things like, number of repeaters in the system, repeater frequencies, the 'steps' in KHz between each repeater frequency, connect tone, whether there is a phone interconnect, and other stuff I don't recall at the moment. With just the PROM information, the system should function to the point where the repeaters should come online, with the first (typically) being constantly transmitting as the control channel, and the others sitting idle waiting for a channel assignment from the controller. Look on the CSC board to see if the PROM is there or if it's just an empty socket...its possible they removed it. If it's there, the system should be able to function, although you may not be able to access it with a radio, as the subscriber records are kept in NVRAM and would be gone if the batteries are flat (likely). Make sure all the channel buttons in the TIB and RIB are not in the 'disable' position.

If you can get it to the point where the repeaters are not in failsoft, and one of them is an active control channel, from that point it's a matter of getting your hands on a SmartNet trunking manual. The system is accessed via RS-232 through one of the DB ports at the top of the cabinet (don't recall which, offhand, but believe it's labeled "CSC" or "CAS" or something to that effect. I always used a software called "CAS" (Controller Access Software) to program, but bitccom/hyperterminal/procomm can work as well.

The easiest thing to do initially is set SAC records to 'off', that way the system is wide open and any properly programmed radio would then work regardless of it's programmed ID. After that, you're off to the races for learning.

You could try & get in touch with the shop that serviced the system. for a nominal fee they might set you up with what you need.

Thank you for that info. I know they haven't removed the PROM as I was there to assist in removing the system from service. I will start searching for the CAS software and see if i can connect into the system.

Thank you once again for your detailed information, you have been extremely helpful.

[d119]

Make sure the buttons on the controller marked "Disable" are not pushed in, and make sure the keys are set to "RUN" and not "SERVICE".

[madfrenchie]

Make sure the buttons on the controller marked "Disable" are not pushed in, and make sure the keys are set to "RUN" and not "SERVICE".

Yeah I verified the buttons are all out, and they keys are also all in the Run position.

I will check a few things out tonight after work and give it another try.

[d119]

That's interesting that it is in failsoft... Having not worked on a 6809 in nearly 8 years, I can't remember what else to check...

If I recall correctly, there is another member here that has maintained them and advised that replacing all of the batteries and electrolytic capacitors was a wise thing to do when he and I were discussing these things some years ago.

[madfrenchie]

That's interesting that it is in failsoft... Having not worked on a 6809 in nearly 8 years, I can't remember what else to check...

If I recall correctly, there is another member here that has maintained them and advised that replacing all of the batteries and electrolytic capacitors was a wise thing to do when he and I were discussing these things some years ago.

Well looks like I made some progress. I rewired everything, and re seated all the cards and then fired up the system.

Lights started flashing, and then bang, i noticed one of the repeaters come out of fail soft (at this point I only plugged in two repeaters.)

I then keyed up one of the radios (they gave us about 45 radios) heard a beep, and bang, IT WORKED!!!!

Things are starting to look up!!!!

Now that I know the system does work, I think I will research what its going to take to change the frequencies so I can play around with it more. (As their new system still uses the same frequencies)

Not sure why the Failure lights are red though...

[wavetar]

I believe the failure lights are on because you don't have all the repeaters hooked up. You have "disabled" showing on the TIB and RIB because the repeaters aren't connected, so the system believes there are problems. Hook them all up, and the failure lights should go away.

As far as changing frequencies, you would require a new PROM to be built, and Motorola cannot provide that anymore. You are stuck with what you have in that regard.

[d119]

As far as changing frequencies, you would require a new PROM to be built, and Motorola cannot provide that anymore. You are stuck with what you have in that regard.

I heard a rumor that Genesis can still burn these PROMs, but at a cost that would be prohibitive. Not to mention, keep in mind that the handheld radios you are using to "test" with this thing could be causing interference to licensed users of whatever frequencies this is on, currently, or if changed in the future.

800MHz is extremely congested everywhere. Think rebanding & SPRINT.

[wavetar]

There used to be a couple of members here that could burn PROMS...not sure if they are still around anymore or not.

[madfrenchie]

As far as changing frequencies, you would require a new PROM to be built, and Motorola cannot provide that anymore. You are stuck with what you have in that regard.

I heard a rumor that Genesis can still burn these PROMs, but at a cost that would be prohibitive. Not to mention, keep in mind that the handheld radios you are using to "test" with this thing could be causing interference to licensed users of whatever frequencies this is on, currently, or if changed in the future.

800MHz is extremely congested everywhere. Think rebanding & SPRINT.

Up here the 800MHZ band is totally empty, there are only about 3 places that have registrations and only 2 are still active. I have dummy loads on everything.. if you stand more then 5 feet away from where the system is you get zero radio signals (I have a spectrum analyzer) the two hand helds I am using to test with also have dummy loads on them, so if i am more then 7 or 8 feet away from the repeaters it won't key them up.

would be nice if i could just find a used prom online somewhere with different frequencies.

[batdude]

it's amazing what time does.... that system you have was ~ $100,000.00 when it was new.... good luck learning.... but I'll tell you that the current day technology is so much different today... no more discreet components/signals and custom PROMs, etc... 20% hardware/80% software.....and all IP these days.

however, they still use the Simpson 260 in basic EE courses... so learn away!

[madfrenchie]

it's amazing what time does.... that system you have was ~ $100,000.00 when it was new.... good luck learning.... but I'll tell you that the current day technology is so much different today... no more discreet components/signals and custom PROMs, etc... 20% hardware/80% software.....and all IP these days.

however, they still use the Simpson 260 in basic EE courses... so learn away!

Yeah I'm the type who likes to learn the basic old school stuff and then work my way up to how the new technology works.

I've learned quit a bit from this whole experience.

I' at the point now where I listed all the cards / cage on e-bay and offered a best offer price.

[kj4chv]

If have a way to burn 28C256 eproms and have frequencies that you can use this system on I can help you on a codeplug. Just PM me

[madfrenchie]

If have a way to burn 28C256 eproms and have frequencies that you can use this system on I can help you on a codeplug. Just PM me

Thank you for the offer. I actually tried looking for a way to burn the eproms and failed.. I sold a few of the cards on e-bay and still have a few of them left.

I'm parting it all out.

[madfrenchie]

If have a way to burn 28C256 eproms and have frequencies that you can use this system on I can help you on a codeplug. Just PM me

Thank you for the offer. I actually tried looking for a way to burn the eproms and failed.. I sold a few of the cards on e-bay and still have a few of them left.

I'm parting it all out.

[Bill_G]

In the late 80's, as we were putting these kinds of systems in, I was also putting in the first MIRS sites, which would later become famous as Nextel. Entirely different technology, but the NDF we signed prevented us from telling the customer "We've seen the future, and this ain't it".

[motorola_otaku]

Did you ever work on CoveragePLUS systems? That was an interesting architecture... kind of an early precursor to Smartzone.

[Bill_G]

Did you ever work on CoveragePLUS systems? That was an interesting architecture... kind of an early precursor to Smartzone.

No. By mid 90's I was hip deep in transportation management systems mostly up and down the West Coast with the occasional expedition into the NE metro area (Boston to DC). Mostly non-MOT stuff. Then the telecom meltdown happened, and I moved to infrastructure just in time for Sept 11 which created new imperatives to harden backbones meaning air gapped microwaves and fiber across mountains and deserts. Glamor work fer sure. I didn't touch trunking again until P25 really started to push out. And even that wasn't Motorola.