FCC requirements mandate that a commercial repeater must have positive control, at all times. Therefore, when the "Attendant" goes home for the night, he/she typically hits the "Set-up/Knock Down" button on the console to configure the repeater as a Remote Base for the night, since no one will be at the console to provide the FCC required "positive control" of the repeater.
This is no big deal, as most all consoles have this typical “Set-up/Knock Down” button.
What happens in the case of a so-called "stand alone repeater" that is normally "controlled" by a consolette type radio? How in the heck does one send “set-up/knock down” commands via a radio interface? I don't see where the consolette base radio can do anything more than a mobile equipped with a DTMF mic. I don't see how one would knock the system down at night via such an arrangement. If this is correct, how do these companies satisfy this FCC requirement?
Larry
Remote Control of a Quantar - Wireline vs/ Radio
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ASTROMODAT
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Most repeaters in the area that I have seen that are remote/standalone are setup for the knockdown with a DTMF sequence. I know our FD is setup that way, but it use to be on a hotel all by itself. Even though its now on our tower at the PD, they never wirelined it and it still controlled the same way.
Yes, its typically supervised 24/7 by the dispatcher, but as long as you have a responsible person in charge of it and can take action in a timely manner, I don't think you would have too much of a problem.
I personally think that radio control would be a better option, or at least a viable backup. Say you have a storm that knocks down everything and no longer have a physical connection? With radio control, you have a much better chance of controlling it without having to take a road trip. Most amature radio repeaters are setup this way.
Not knowning the entire rule, as long as your repeater isn't on autopilot 365 a year, you shouldn't have a problem. I don't think the FCC expects someone to babysit a radio 24 hours a day.
Yes, its typically supervised 24/7 by the dispatcher, but as long as you have a responsible person in charge of it and can take action in a timely manner, I don't think you would have too much of a problem.
I personally think that radio control would be a better option, or at least a viable backup. Say you have a storm that knocks down everything and no longer have a physical connection? With radio control, you have a much better chance of controlling it without having to take a road trip. Most amature radio repeaters are setup this way.
Not knowning the entire rule, as long as your repeater isn't on autopilot 365 a year, you shouldn't have a problem. I don't think the FCC expects someone to babysit a radio 24 hours a day.
Lowband radio. The original and non-complicated wide area interoperable communications system
Larry, what you are looking for is called SAM.
Check in your Quantar planner.
SAM = Station Access Module
Once you install that you can program set-up / knockdown via DTMF, MDC, etc.
SAM first showed up as an option for MSF5000 and could be programmed with the regular station RSS. For Quantar, the marketing bozos got in the picture - so Quantar SAM takes its own RSS.
You are looking at about $200 for the RSS & just over $1k for the SAM board.
Check in your Quantar planner.
SAM = Station Access Module
Once you install that you can program set-up / knockdown via DTMF, MDC, etc.
SAM first showed up as an option for MSF5000 and could be programmed with the regular station RSS. For Quantar, the marketing bozos got in the picture - so Quantar SAM takes its own RSS.
You are looking at about $200 for the RSS & just over $1k for the SAM board.
Just to amplify: the SAM is capable of decoding MDC (and other formats) and setting flags, which can then be read by the "Wildcard" function to implement any radio function that can be controlled by wildcard programming, such as repeater knockdown, main/standby, channel change, and the like.
As for the requirement of an operator in attendance, take a look at 47 C.F.R. sec. 90.431:
"No person is required to be in attendance at a station when transmitting during normal rendition of service and when either . . . retrainsmitting by self-actuating means a radio signal received from another radio station or stations."
Your transmitter is operating as a "base station" when activated by the console and as a "mobile relay" when activated by a field unit. When the operator goes home, it is only operating as a mobile relay. I've always interpreted 90.431 to say that it is OK to allow a mobile relay to run unattended. Just be sure the TOT function is activated in case something goes haywire.
As for the requirement of an operator in attendance, take a look at 47 C.F.R. sec. 90.431:
"No person is required to be in attendance at a station when transmitting during normal rendition of service and when either . . . retrainsmitting by self-actuating means a radio signal received from another radio station or stations."
Your transmitter is operating as a "base station" when activated by the console and as a "mobile relay" when activated by a field unit. When the operator goes home, it is only operating as a mobile relay. I've always interpreted 90.431 to say that it is OK to allow a mobile relay to run unattended. Just be sure the TOT function is activated in case something goes haywire.
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ASTROMODAT
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ASTROMODAT
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2 quick follow-up questions:
1. Does the SAM piggy-back onto the SCM, or the WIB, or is it a stand alone card that occupies the 2nd RX/UHSO slot?
2. Looks like an ASTRO system with no analog radios would still need a console, since SAM requires an analog signal for commands (e.g., either MDC or DTMF)?
Larry
1. Does the SAM piggy-back onto the SCM, or the WIB, or is it a stand alone card that occupies the 2nd RX/UHSO slot?
2. Looks like an ASTRO system with no analog radios would still need a console, since SAM requires an analog signal for commands (e.g., either MDC or DTMF)?
Larry
and...
I WANT ONE..... NOW NOW NOW
anyone have one tossed into the quantar junk parts bin?
this will solve my major complaint about my quantar --- can't turn the damn thing on/off over the air.
doug
anyone have one tossed into the quantar junk parts bin?
this will solve my major complaint about my quantar --- can't turn the damn thing on/off over the air.
doug
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ASTROMODAT
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how do i tell...
how, pray tell does one determine which EPIC is installed?
d
d
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ASTROMODAT
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batdude, from your posted photo, it looked like I could see LEDs in your SCM. This would be the pre-EPIC card. The EPIC boards (and the WIB-II card) use light pipes. This woulod be the unsophisticated/'simple way to tell. You can spot it immediately because the light pipes are clear plastic, with no visible color when they are "Off."
Larry
Larry
"...The SAM capability is pure software, option X932..."
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I don't think so, Larry. Look at your Quantar planner. It says "X932 equips the station with a station access module that fits within the cardcage. Not compatible with wide spaced receiver or UHSO X873"
Also listed in the spares section "TLN3364 Repeater Access Module"
If you look that up with Motorola On Line - it's a part you can order.
As far as using SAM with an all digital system - every P25 radio can still trasmit analog.
There is a good description of how to set the station up in the Quantar service manual called "Dual Control of Gated Access VIA TRC and SAM"
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I don't think so, Larry. Look at your Quantar planner. It says "X932 equips the station with a station access module that fits within the cardcage. Not compatible with wide spaced receiver or UHSO X873"
Also listed in the spares section "TLN3364 Repeater Access Module"
If you look that up with Motorola On Line - it's a part you can order.
As far as using SAM with an all digital system - every P25 radio can still trasmit analog.
There is a good description of how to set the station up in the Quantar service manual called "Dual Control of Gated Access VIA TRC and SAM"
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ASTROMODAT
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ASTROMODAT
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xmo is correct. I just looked it up in the current price book, and X932 (SAM option) has a corresponding FRU, TLN3364 @ $1,000. But, you also need enabling/supporting software for this option, as the Quantar FLASHport price pages show a SAM FLASHport upgrade. Bottomline, you'll need both h/w and s/w for SAM: the SAM board itself (and the station equipped with an EPIC board), plus FLASHport.
The EPIC II Conventional is CLN1293 @ $2,000, or the EPIC II Intellirptr is CLN1294 @ $3,200. The EPIC III is CLN1621 @ $2,000, or the EPIC IV is DLN1229 @ $3,200. I don't even see an EPIC I board in the FRUs, but I did a cursory scan and could have missed it. The Quantar now ships standard with an EPIC board (e.g., no more SCB).
Larry
The EPIC II Conventional is CLN1293 @ $2,000, or the EPIC II Intellirptr is CLN1294 @ $3,200. The EPIC III is CLN1621 @ $2,000, or the EPIC IV is DLN1229 @ $3,200. I don't even see an EPIC I board in the FRUs, but I did a cursory scan and could have missed it. The Quantar now ships standard with an EPIC board (e.g., no more SCB).
Larry
There are a couple of ways to remotely knockdown and setup a Quantar without using the SAM.
You can acquire a DTMF transponder (I believe ComSpec still makes them). Rx audio is paralleled to the decoder and it is programed to close a relay when Code X is received and open the relay when Code Y is received. The relay is then wired to one of the discrete inputs on the 50-pin connector on the Quantar, and wildcard programming is used to knockdown the repeater function when that input is valid and setup the repeater function when the input goes invalid. You then access the control from the field with a portable capable of sending keyboard DTMF. The only problem is that this is not a very secure system.
Another way to do it, sort of Rube Goldberg style, but it works, is to program the Quantar for four channels: the first three use your usual working frequencies but with three different PLs and the fourth channel is a channel carefully selected so that it is close enough to your working channel to pass the duplexer and pre-selector, but NOT in use in your receiver area by any other licensee. Program the channel for RX-only. Next, program the Quantar to scan all four channels. (It would be easier with MPL but you can't use MPL with multiple channels.) Then with wildcard programming program a Table called "Code 44" as follows: If AccTbl 2 then Chan 4 and Scan Off (inactive: null); and a Table called "Code 45" as follows: If AccTbl 3, then Chan 1 and Scan On (inactive: null).
Your portable has to have two channels programmed in it. A channel called "Code 44" sends on your working repeater input with the tone that is Tone 2 in the Quantar's access table. A channel called "Code 45" sends on the Quantar's channel 4 with the tone that is Tone 3 in the Quantar's access table.
Functions as follows: on power up, Quantar is repeating Ch. 1 (but with 3 tones!). When you key your portable's "Code 44" channel, Quantar switches to Ch. 4 and stays there (no scan), and does not answer your regular users (it doesn't hear them). When you key your portable's "Code 45" channel, Quantar reverts to Ch. 1 and resumes scan operation.
The big problem with this approach is that you will have three active tones on your working channel, and technically you won't have a license for whatever Ch. 4 is that you send with your portable. There may also be some scan delay though minimal (since the Quantar should never have valid freq and tone on Chs. 2, 3 or 4), and this function won't work if a users on Tone 1 has a stuck mike (since the reception on Ch. 1 will interrupt the scan and the radio won't hear your control transmission on Ch. 2). As I said, sort of Rube Goldberg, but it works.
A third possibility, of course, is to control the Quantar with a Zetron board and simply turn tones on and off OTA using the Zetron's OTA capability. The 38M gives you all sorts of features that are not available in the Quantar's SCM (which is limited to 12 PLs and 1 DPL). Connecting the 38M to the Quantar is a piece of cake.
You can acquire a DTMF transponder (I believe ComSpec still makes them). Rx audio is paralleled to the decoder and it is programed to close a relay when Code X is received and open the relay when Code Y is received. The relay is then wired to one of the discrete inputs on the 50-pin connector on the Quantar, and wildcard programming is used to knockdown the repeater function when that input is valid and setup the repeater function when the input goes invalid. You then access the control from the field with a portable capable of sending keyboard DTMF. The only problem is that this is not a very secure system.
Another way to do it, sort of Rube Goldberg style, but it works, is to program the Quantar for four channels: the first three use your usual working frequencies but with three different PLs and the fourth channel is a channel carefully selected so that it is close enough to your working channel to pass the duplexer and pre-selector, but NOT in use in your receiver area by any other licensee. Program the channel for RX-only. Next, program the Quantar to scan all four channels. (It would be easier with MPL but you can't use MPL with multiple channels.) Then with wildcard programming program a Table called "Code 44" as follows: If AccTbl 2 then Chan 4 and Scan Off (inactive: null); and a Table called "Code 45" as follows: If AccTbl 3, then Chan 1 and Scan On (inactive: null).
Your portable has to have two channels programmed in it. A channel called "Code 44" sends on your working repeater input with the tone that is Tone 2 in the Quantar's access table. A channel called "Code 45" sends on the Quantar's channel 4 with the tone that is Tone 3 in the Quantar's access table.
Functions as follows: on power up, Quantar is repeating Ch. 1 (but with 3 tones!). When you key your portable's "Code 44" channel, Quantar switches to Ch. 4 and stays there (no scan), and does not answer your regular users (it doesn't hear them). When you key your portable's "Code 45" channel, Quantar reverts to Ch. 1 and resumes scan operation.
The big problem with this approach is that you will have three active tones on your working channel, and technically you won't have a license for whatever Ch. 4 is that you send with your portable. There may also be some scan delay though minimal (since the Quantar should never have valid freq and tone on Chs. 2, 3 or 4), and this function won't work if a users on Tone 1 has a stuck mike (since the reception on Ch. 1 will interrupt the scan and the radio won't hear your control transmission on Ch. 2). As I said, sort of Rube Goldberg, but it works.
A third possibility, of course, is to control the Quantar with a Zetron board and simply turn tones on and off OTA using the Zetron's OTA capability. The 38M gives you all sorts of features that are not available in the Quantar's SCM (which is limited to 12 PLs and 1 DPL). Connecting the 38M to the Quantar is a piece of cake.
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ASTROMODAT
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Using the SAM in the Quantar is probably overkill for the few control goodies that it provides. If the station is equipped with the Wild Card option, then one could have several flexible control type closures at the “System Connector” on the Quantar’s backplane (port #17), although these functions would not include “access functionality parameters.” Better yet, an external controller could be interfaced at this point (see Quantar Functional Manual, “System Applications” section, “Input/Output Specifications for External Controllers.”) For full functionality, you can edit the Wild Card table to perform a multitude of custom capabilities.
Another approach would be to connect an external controller to the 6809/MRTI connector on the Quantar’s backplane, which is connector #14.
Don’t forget that since there is no codec in the Quantar (they had to cut costs somewhere!), any external repeater controller will only support analog FM ops. For full support of both digital and analog ops via an external controller, one would need a DIU either collocated at the station, or located remotely. In this case, the controller is simply connected to the “MRTI Patch” RJ-45 jack on the rear of the DIU. For a DIU collocated with the Quantar, the DIU to Quantar connection is accomplished with a V.24 protocol. Remote DIU to Quantar connection entails ASTRO modems (in the Quantar and DIU) sent over a 3002 leased line (@ 9600 baud).
For a really slick set-up, one could use the new (announced on August 25, 2003) Vyex 7k DAB (Digital Audio Board) plugged into the SCOM 7k controller (or soon, using SCOM’s NEW controller that will blow the entire market away!). This new DAB board records and plays out high quality WAV files, up to 16 bit @ 22 kHz. You can store up to 2 Gb (yep, it’s FAT16, so no 4 Gb card support here!). WAV files are stored on the DAB board via a MultiMediaCard™ (FLASH memory). One could really impress his friends by playing WAV IDs and WAV announcements. Vyex has even gone so far as to hire a voice over talent to record a bunch of KEWL WAV recordings that come standard with the board. You can hire the same talent (in order to match the voice of the pre-canned WAV recordings) for custom recordings of your own choosing, for a very nominal price.
http://www.vyex.com/products.html
http://www.scomcontrollers.com/
The DAB board is NOT a stand alone device. It must be plugged into an SCOM controller, such as their current 7k model. The NEW SCOM controller (due out very soon), will have an integrated WAV board (not plug-in like the DAB; it will be fully integrated into the new controller’s main board), and supports 4 simultaneous ports/repeaters (you know, just in case some Batboarder has 4 Quantars!).
This stuff makes the SAM look like child’s play from the 1980’s!
Larry
Another approach would be to connect an external controller to the 6809/MRTI connector on the Quantar’s backplane, which is connector #14.
Don’t forget that since there is no codec in the Quantar (they had to cut costs somewhere!), any external repeater controller will only support analog FM ops. For full support of both digital and analog ops via an external controller, one would need a DIU either collocated at the station, or located remotely. In this case, the controller is simply connected to the “MRTI Patch” RJ-45 jack on the rear of the DIU. For a DIU collocated with the Quantar, the DIU to Quantar connection is accomplished with a V.24 protocol. Remote DIU to Quantar connection entails ASTRO modems (in the Quantar and DIU) sent over a 3002 leased line (@ 9600 baud).
For a really slick set-up, one could use the new (announced on August 25, 2003) Vyex 7k DAB (Digital Audio Board) plugged into the SCOM 7k controller (or soon, using SCOM’s NEW controller that will blow the entire market away!). This new DAB board records and plays out high quality WAV files, up to 16 bit @ 22 kHz. You can store up to 2 Gb (yep, it’s FAT16, so no 4 Gb card support here!). WAV files are stored on the DAB board via a MultiMediaCard™ (FLASH memory). One could really impress his friends by playing WAV IDs and WAV announcements. Vyex has even gone so far as to hire a voice over talent to record a bunch of KEWL WAV recordings that come standard with the board. You can hire the same talent (in order to match the voice of the pre-canned WAV recordings) for custom recordings of your own choosing, for a very nominal price.
http://www.vyex.com/products.html
http://www.scomcontrollers.com/
The DAB board is NOT a stand alone device. It must be plugged into an SCOM controller, such as their current 7k model. The NEW SCOM controller (due out very soon), will have an integrated WAV board (not plug-in like the DAB; it will be fully integrated into the new controller’s main board), and supports 4 simultaneous ports/repeaters (you know, just in case some Batboarder has 4 Quantars!).
This stuff makes the SAM look like child’s play from the 1980’s!
Larry